tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38586079.post8273943055074319329..comments2024-01-22T15:27:00.730+08:00Comments on One size doesn't fit all: Why doesn't the Oracle RDBMS feature in the web space?Chris Muirhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06566648350240654621noreply@blogger.comBlogger8125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38586079.post-11588484660961436212007-12-17T09:19:00.000+09:002007-12-17T09:19:00.000+09:00Thanks for the comments Alex. I see your point abo...Thanks for the comments Alex. <BR/><BR/>I see your point about most web-apps avoiding complexity in the middle tier. It's my understanding that a fair few of the most successful have actually written their own frameworks, mostly optimised for speed, and fully proprietary. <BR/><BR/>To bounce a question back at you, you mention MySql doesn't give many possibilities on tuning and working around badly designed applications. Have you any experience and comments of SQL-Server and it's capabilities? <BR/><BR/>Cheers,<BR/><BR/>CM.Chris Muirhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06566648350240654621noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38586079.post-30047139676718016022007-12-15T05:39:00.000+09:002007-12-15T05:39:00.000+09:00My comment would be somewhat inline with Noons obs...My comment would be somewhat inline with Noons observation but from a bit different angle.<BR/><BR/>I agree with him that to achieve extremely high availability and performance, we have to write damn good applications - designed and coded very very well. They can't afford complex environments either - "complexity is the enemy of availability". I just don't agree that Java itself is absolute devil. It's Java heavy frameworks and Java developers' coding and design style (well not all of them, again).<BR/><BR/>Having said that, MySQL does NOT give many possibilities for tweaking, tuning and working around badly designed applications. Practically any MySQL problem is fixed on application side and MySQL DBA's role is to provide right recommendations for that. At least, that what I concluded from my limited MySQL DBA experience.<BR/><BR/>I.e. well designed application don't need feature reach database tier.<BR/><BR/>On the other hand, Web applications are heavy on read traffic so caching on application tier and/or MySQL performs very well there. Now, try to use middle-tier cache and MySQL in heavy concurrent update application.<BR/><BR/>Moving further to web 2.0 (I hate that term to be honest)... Modern web applications are quite different. We are only in the *beginning* but web traffic is now not read-only anymore and I don't mean simple logging of page-clicks. Thus, I think Oracle time is just coming in web 2.0 space.Alex Gorbachevhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03862972144277237798noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38586079.post-34514438118954925392007-12-13T10:14:00.000+09:002007-12-13T10:14:00.000+09:00Nati's post related to *large* scale web sites. Le...Nati's post related to *large* scale web sites. Let's not confuse that with the typical "weekender" small business web site. <BR/><BR/>For the big folks, database niceties are the last thing in their radar. What they want is the ability to not lose traffic, period.<BR/><BR/>When I worked at a major SEM, that was the overwhelming priority: any lost click, every single one of them, would cost us real money. We had to provide absolute continuous service. Not .99, not .99999: absolute 0 failure, no excuses.<BR/><BR/>What they need is absolutely predictable and reliable performance. That means fast code - forget java and its code-bloat - and cached lookup data: no need for a db there.<BR/><BR/>Now as much as Oracle might want to convince the world they can provide that, fact is: they can't and neither can any other database, BTW. Neither can java. Not at realistic cost levels, anyway.<BR/><BR/>Look at the details of tpc benchmarks and the facts are there: results are *averaged* over a period. You may have relatively long periods of fast response, followed by short periods of worse performance while the db catches up, flushes caches, writes redos, whatever. <BR/><BR/>Try to explain that to someone who loses $$$ when they lose "clicks"?<BR/><BR/>Result? Large scale sites use load-balanced fast, cheap and mean web servers - usually Apache - complemented with custom code in C or other 3-gl language, to capture time critical data: only way to do it with absolute 100% reliability. <BR/><BR/>The equation is very simple and has never changed: code-bloat never performed well. You want speed at reasonable cost, you reduce the number of instructions you have to execute. Simple as that.<BR/><BR/>They then aggregate to data stores, as a back-end task. Usually a db, but it's not really important which one at that stage: anything will do as non-fail immediate response is not important by then. And they may use a db as well to conveniently manage and feed the lookup caches of the front-end. <BR/><BR/>No need for "rocket-science" db here. So they go with what makes sense in terms of $$$: mysql, postgres. <BR/><BR/>Hence why you don't see much Oracle on these sites, at least not in the front end. <BR/><BR/>You'll see it used in the back-end: financial side of the business, dw, large offline number-crunching traffic analysis and so on. Where Oracle can really deliver the goods and make sense in economic terms.<BR/><BR/>It's all to do with the nature of the business. Nothing to do with the merits of a db over another, really.Noonshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07694829378563989648noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38586079.post-3086161966196012152007-12-13T10:10:00.000+09:002007-12-13T10:10:00.000+09:00Justin said over Twitter today that Bebo runs Orac...Justin said over Twitter today that Bebo runs Oracle RAC.<BR/>http://www.webwire.com/ViewPressRel.asp?aId=26795Jakehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15661151740067801922noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38586079.post-4363789696008371132007-12-13T06:36:00.000+09:002007-12-13T06:36:00.000+09:00Could be a barrage of reasons.1. What DB is used/t...Could be a barrage of reasons.<BR/>1. What DB is used/taught at college. If they are hiring grads who haved just used MySQL/Postgres, then stick with it.<BR/><BR/>I wouldn't be surprised if script coders started with a lot of unbound SQL, and it just wouldn't perform in Oracle, so they write off the database platform.<BR/><BR/>2. "Maybe the Oracle RDBMS is overkill for the database requirements of most websites?"<BR/>I'm not sure about 'overkill', but 'different kill'. Oracle DBMS comes from the days of client/server (and before) when a user would be logged in for minutes/hours with a stateful connection. MySQL especially is geared towards web transactions with low overhead (even at the expense of consistency).SydOraclehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08828771074492585943noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38586079.post-42964281943631796412007-12-13T04:25:00.000+09:002007-12-13T04:25:00.000+09:00To my knowledge eBay and Amazon are using Oracle.B...To my knowledge eBay and Amazon are using Oracle.<BR/><BR/>But to your question. A reason why so many startups are using mySql could be that the programmers/students who who are coming or are still at the university have never used a real database like Oracle and are not aware of the features it offers. Especially if they treat the database just as a dumb data store as most middleware programmers do.<BR/><BR/>PatrickPatrick Wolfhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16652802762749621200noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38586079.post-87510507884651556672007-12-12T18:35:00.000+09:002007-12-12T18:35:00.000+09:00One more reason, maybe even more important:Oracle ...One more reason, maybe even more important:<BR/><BR/>Oracle is mainly choosen by IT people in large organisations where taking risk by choosing open source is hard. Maybe they would like to choose a free alternative, because it's cheap and good enough, but they're not in a possition to do so, because it's percieved as risky by their collegeas.<BR/><BR/>Startups are run by people who take risks all the time.<BR/><BR/>Another case of "nobody ever got fired for buying [ibm|microsoft|oracle|...]" you might say.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01316290752638494044noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38586079.post-6840935410394819712007-12-12T18:14:00.000+09:002007-12-12T18:14:00.000+09:00I think it's a combination of 2 factors:1) As a st...I think it's a combination of 2 factors:<BR/>1) As a startup you dont have a lot of money, why spent it when you can get a free alternative.<BR/>2) The free alternatives are good enough. Why spend money on features you don't need? Many large websites can run on mysql or postgresql, so why wouldn't it be good enough for a startup?Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01316290752638494044noreply@blogger.com